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Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

 
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Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Valvebloke » Tue May 10, 2016 10:09 am

Split off Subject wrote:
The following discussion was split off from a thread in the suppliers section. The discussion that developed was not really suitable for that section and more importantly would have been lost due to the thread culling that takes place in there. The thread started to deal with the "ethics" of removing "golden" items such as valves and amps from one type of kit, to furnish another area of the vintage collection/hi-fi arena.

That discussion can continue here now its been split off and VB's comment picks up the new threads starting point



Yes, demand for vintage hi-fi exceeds supply and, as is so often the case (look at housing), pressure is greatest at the bottom of the market. So small, simple equipment sells for more money than the quality really justifies.

If you can't be certain (and I do mean absolutely certain) that it will end up in the hands of a competent restorer, or that it will go for scrap/disassembly, then do make sure that it's safe before you sell it.

VB

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by turretslug » Wed May 11, 2016 1:53 pm

Yes, it would be nice to think that the interest was due to a recognition by those concerned of classic, solidly made and solidly middle-class representatives of an era when radio had come of age and had matured as a mainstream house-hold item, rather than a flakey curiosity. I'm not that naive, though...... It might be wishful thinking, but there would be a certain schadenfreude in finding that they had been adapted to fit something very unsought like an MKT4 sometime n the past :bba

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Cathovisor » Wed May 11, 2016 3:55 pm

That's why you often see requests for additional photos inside.

Trouble is, even if some enterprising valve manufacturer were to start making power triodes tomorrow to the exact same spec. that GEC-Osram and Ediswan Mazda did and sold them for £15 each, the deluded, irrational hi-fi fools with golden ears would still drive the cost of the sets up because their clients would demand the valves with a particular shape of envelope, colour of writing or style of getter as being sonically superior. If we were lucky, we'd still get the cast-off set and could put the aforementioned £15 new manufacture triode in it...

To quote Pirsig: When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Valvebloke » Wed May 11, 2016 4:26 pm

To be fair, there are some vintage hi-fi collectors who are just as keen to have original valves in their vintage hi-fi as others are to have original valves in their vintage wirelesses. And for what very little it's worth, my experience of the owners of the hi-fi is that they get hours of enjoyment out of actually using their kit. Any wireless collector who just wants to look at his restored set is in the lucky position of being able to put an end-of-life PX3 in it (unless we're going to argue that zero-emission ones look different :bba ).

VB

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by cobaltblue » Wed May 11, 2016 5:00 pm

Valvebloke wrote:Any wireless collector who just wants to look at his restored set is in the lucky position of being able to put an end-of-life PX3 in it (unless we're going to argue that zero-emission ones look different :bba ).

VB


I always wondered what a Zero emission PX4 was called :aad

Cheers Mike T

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by turretslug » Wed May 11, 2016 5:16 pm

I assumed that VB was ducking the search engines....

Unfortunately, the ease and relative cheapness nowadays of substantial numbers of solid-state watts means that these poor old bottles are likely to be worked hard and may not last long, exponentiating demand and price. I used to know a few of the DH triode audio crowd and the surprisingly basic questions I used to get asked about things like bias, loading etc. didn't fill me with optimism as to their probable longevity.... (Sometimes their longevity, not just the valves!)

In the manner of buses, a third example of this chassis has appeared on the site.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by cobaltblue » Wed May 11, 2016 5:32 pm

turretslug wrote:I assumed that VB was ducking the search engines....
.

You could be right but I thought being in the private section only members can see these posts.

Spiders and Bots not allowed :aad

Cheers

Mike T

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Valvebloke » Wed May 11, 2016 6:27 pm

turretslug wrote:I assumed that VB was ducking the search engines ...


Not that smart I'm afraid - just the usual fat fingers :ccg .

VB

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Cathovisor » Wed May 11, 2016 7:30 pm

Valvebloke wrote:To be fair, there are some vintage hi-fi collectors who are just as keen to have original valves in their vintage hi-fi as others are to have original valves in their vintage wirelesses.

Thing is... how many commercial - or magazine design amps - that used triodes as part of their design were actually built? Not just counting ex-radiogram amplifiers, which I can never understand; or is the lack of negative feedback the attraction in these? I just feel that many amps are new-builds but the woo that surrounds a lot of hi-fi causes the demand for the old stuff to go in them. Like how getters influence sound quality. See also: the demand for 1950s SABA "green-cone" loudspeakers in Germany.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Valvebloke » Wed May 11, 2016 10:35 pm

It's why I said 'some' Mike :qq1 . I'm not sure what the appeal of radiogram amps is either, but there is an appeal. Then again, you could ask the same question of pre-war cars (honestly, none of them drives at all well) or pre-war phones or, hush my mouth, pre-war TV's ! No-one pays the prices they do for these things because of their fantastic performance. They pay to experience technology as it once was, and to enjoy something which might now be rarer than rare. Owners of modern valve amps (poor souls mostly, as the more affordable ones often aren't a patch on the vintage equivalents, in my expanding experience) might just see a valve from the time when people really knew how to make them as a way to get closer to 'the real thing'.

VB

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by slidertogrid » Thu May 12, 2016 10:46 am

Valvebloke wrote: I'm not sure what the appeal of radiogram amps is either, but there is an appeal. Then again, you could ask the same question of pre-war cars (honestly, none of them drives at all well) or pre-war phones or, hush my mouth, pre-war TV's ! No-one pays the prices they do for these things because of their fantastic performance. They pay to experience technology as it once was, and to enjoy something which might now be rarer than rare.
VB

Agreed. but vintage car collectors don't rip out the engine chrome it and run it on a stand in the garage having thrown the rest away...
The car lives on to be enjoyed by someone else.
Rich.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Valvebloke » Thu May 12, 2016 1:17 pm

slidertogrid wrote:Agreed. but vintage car collectors don't rip out the engine chrome it and run it on a stand in the garage having thrown the rest away...
The car lives on to be enjoyed by someone else.
Rich.


This isn't an accurate analogy in the case of the radiogram amp discussion. The engine of an old car is entirely specific to that old car (or to others of exactly the same type - and collectors do swap them between those). It would make no sense at all to take the engine out and 'run it on a stand'.

An old valve, on the other hand, is just a general purpose component. It was used in old radiogram amps in exactly the same way that it was used in old wirelesses. If you'd gone into a shop back in the day and said "I need a new PX4" the owner wouldn't have said "What do you want it for ? I like wirelesses and if you want it for a wireless then I'll sell you one. But I don't like radiograms so if you want it for a 'gram then you can sling yer 'ook." That attitude has come about more recently, since NOS PX4's have become rare (=expensive) and enthusiasts have had to swap them between bits of kit. Folks whose hobby is limited to one sort of kit don't seem to be happy when the valves are used by folks whose hobby is another sort. Since there aren't enough valves to go round even the vintage kit however, some of that kit is going to have to do without. The debate can then boil down, sadly IMHO, to us arguing that our hobby is somehow worth more than other people's.

The question of putting old valves into new equipment is a much more contentious one. (Even the car enthusiasts did it though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... ative_uses :ccf .) Personally I might go as far as fitting old valves to replica old equipment, but I wouldn't fit rare ones to new designs. I'd hesitate to judge other people over that though. I would also absolutely condemn anyone who threw an old wireless, minus one or more valves, away, rather than letting it be enjoyed by an enthusiast. That said, if the enthusiast wouldn't want it unless it had all the original valves in, then I might raise an eyebrow at him too ...

VB

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by ntscuser » Thu May 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Valvebloke wrote:The question of putting old valves into new equipment is a much more contentious one. (Even the car enthusiasts did it though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... ative_uses :ccf .)


I think you'll find that article says they put old engines into new cars rather than old valves? :bba (Sorry, couldn't resist).

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Paul_RK » Thu May 12, 2016 3:18 pm

Valvebloke wrote:
This isn't an accurate analogy in the case of the radiogram amp discussion. The engine of an old car is entirely specific to that old car (or to others of exactly the same type - and collectors do swap them between those). It would make no sense at all to take the engine out and 'run it on a stand'.

An old valve, on the other hand, is just a general purpose component...

VB


It's not a perfect analogy - an extracted radiogram amp can be used for a purpose related to its original one, the reproduction of sound, whereas an engine on a stand has lost its purpose - but surely the analogy refers to the amplifier rather than the valve? As such, an amplifier usually is specific to the apparatus for which it was designed, or to a small range of alternative versions. I'd have to confess that a fine radiogram lacking its amp. chassis is a sorry sight to me, and while I'd applaud any enthusiast disposed to provide it with a substitute amplifier I'd fully understand one who couldn't stomach that undertaking.

Paul

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Jamie » Thu May 12, 2016 8:09 pm

I think, In essence we are all very different what we do with our vintage mctrickery!

While some people remove it for their amplifiers, others will restore the cabinet and radio and use it, while others will only clean it up and use it till it burns. Some won't restore it at all and will lock it away in a glass case forever.

Point is, we are all different but at the end of the day at least it's not going into landfill a second use will be found for it! Better to use and abuse than waste with haste.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by turretslug » Fri May 13, 2016 11:07 am

It's likely that this flagship console may also feature a sought-after type, rather than the xx63 or xx42 of its smaller brethren;

link removed

Again, fingers crossed that it's going to someone who will appreciate it for what it is as a whole, and it's instructive to consider what that big, sturdy, veneered box alone would cost to make now! Were it were nearer, I'd seriously consider homing it. Getting close to communications receiver territory (albeit without quite the IF selectivity) with room-filling quality sound to boot. A proper radio.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Paul_RK » Fri May 13, 2016 12:05 pm

turretslug wrote:It's likely that this flagship console may also feature a sought-after type, rather than the xx63 or xx42 of its smaller brethren


I can't remember seeing one before, but isn't that a 564? In which case it uses a pair of KT63s, just like the table model 561 and its larger brother the 563 radiogram "with a nasty case of Queen Anne's leg", as Chas Miller puts it, one of which I'm harbouring.

Paul

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by cobaltblue » Fri May 13, 2016 1:04 pm

Here's an example where it would be OK to Rip the desirable Amp out of the Gram IMHO

link removed

After all it doesn't belong there anyway :aad

Cheers

Mike T

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by turretslug » Fri May 13, 2016 2:12 pm

I defer to your knowledge there, Paul- I was thinking it was one of the models with a single-ended clickety-click. Looking in my "Marconi Valves" pamphlet, the 564 actually seems better specced than an R1155!- though this was hardly the acme of comms receivers, and I guess that, strictly speaking, the presence/absence of BFO is a pivotal point. Interested to see SW coverage down to 5m- was this with TV sound in mind, or were there other things going on there? Seems like a very fine radio indeed. At least, the presence of "lowly" KT63s might make for more genuine interest,

Colin

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Cathovisor » Fri May 13, 2016 2:38 pm

Paul_RK wrote:
turretslug wrote:It's likely that this flagship console may also feature a sought-after type, rather than the xx63 or xx42 of its smaller brethren


I can't remember seeing one before, but isn't that a 564? In which case it uses a pair of KT63s, just like the table model 561 and its larger brother the 563 radiogram "with a nasty case of Queen Anne's leg", as Chas Miller puts it, one of which I'm harbouring.

Paul

It is indeed, Paul; quite a nice machine.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Cathovisor » Fri May 13, 2016 2:44 pm

turretslug wrote:I defer to your knowledge there, Paul- I was thinking it was one of the models with a single-ended clickety-click. Looking in my "Marconi Valves" pamphlet, the 564 actually seems better specced than an R1155!- though this was hardly the acme of comms receivers, and I guess that, strictly speaking, the presence/absence of BFO is a pivotal point. Interested to see SW coverage down to 5m- was this with TV sound in mind, or were there other things going on there? Seems like a very fine radio indeed. At least, the presence of "lowly" KT63s might make for more genuine interest,

Colin

Hi Colin,

the intention was to incorporate TV sound coverage by extending the SW down to 5m and take advantage of the unrestricted bandwidth of TV sound transmissions. I seem to recall there were also some experimental high-fidelity stations starting out in the US in a pre-Armstrong FM era at the time this set was released. Its compatriot in the HMV stable is the 655 bookcase. From memory, to get coverage to 60MHz this chassis used a two-valve frequency changer: if my memory serves me (which increasingly, it doesn't!) it's something like a triode-strapped pentode as oscillator and an X64 mixer.

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Cathovisor » Fri May 13, 2016 2:49 pm

cobaltblue wrote:Here's an example where it would be OK to Rip the desirable Amp out of the Gram IMHO

link removed

After all it doesn't belong there anyway :aad


That has got to be the strangest combination of kit ever: what would appear to be an RGD 746 cabinet, a Collaro 3-speed, an Alba radio chassis and now the most audiophool-desirable Leak of the all?!

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Valvebloke » Fri May 13, 2016 3:45 pm

Not, I think, the most desirable Leak. The amp in the ad is the TL/10. The original TL/12 Point Ones sell for a lot more :qq1 .

VB

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by turretslug » Fri May 13, 2016 4:10 pm

Cathovisor wrote:Hi Colin,

the intention was to incorporate TV sound coverage by extending the SW down to 5m and take advantage of the unrestricted bandwidth of TV sound transmissions. I seem to recall there were also some experimental high-fidelity stations starting out in the US in a pre-Armstrong FM era at the time this set was released. Its compatriot in the HMV stable is the 655 bookcase. From memory, to get coverage to 60MHz this chassis used a two-valve frequency changer: if my memory serves me (which increasingly, it doesn't!) it's something like a triode-strapped pentode as oscillator and an X64 mixer.


I'd forgotten about the embryonic US 42-50MHz plans- I guess there was a feeling that a top-of-the-range set like this needed future-proofing. I had a scan through the BBC report on the same-chassis HMV 650 and they were scathing about the sensitivity on the highest 12-5m SW band- it reminded me that Marconi's CR150 HF receiver was also measured as markedly lacking in sensitivity on its 30-60MHz range relative to the lower bands (4x EF50 front end, 2x RF, Mixer, separate LO.). There can't have been too many domestic sets that went as far as using the mix-only X64 configuration with separate LO- though its 6L7 US equivalent was used in quite a few professional applications such as the BC342 and the Bendix RA-1 and MN-26 receivers. I seem to recall that it was not only one of the noisiest mixers around, but also took markedly high screen current- I suspect that these two factors aren't entirely unconnected!

 
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Re: Removing sought after parts from vintage gear

Post by Cathovisor » Fri May 13, 2016 4:15 pm

Valvebloke wrote:Not, I think, the most desirable Leak. The amp in the ad is the TL/10. The original TL/12 Point Ones sell for a lot more :qq1 .

VB

I can remember being offered a Point One at school when they were clearing out the physics prep room some 35 years ago. I thought "Why would I want that junk? It's only mono and it has no valves anyway." I took some other stuff instead.

Hindsight is a cruel thing sometimes: like all those Dansettes I ruthlessly despatched in the 1970s...

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