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4.5 batteries - what type?

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4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:46 am

I have a set that runs on two 4.5 volt batteries with the speaker on the center tap.
It is a French set and the best clue I have got is the battery clip and the size of the holder this being a bit larger than a PP9 perhaps getting on for double.
I am curious as to what size they would have been.
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by cobaltblue » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:42 am

I Have seen similar clips before.

I cant quite tell because I cant see enough quite enough of the design of the clip.

The one I have (somewhere) used this style battery.

The 1289 lantern battery

Cheers

Mike T
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:11 am

That is the one I was thinking of. They have a bit of an odd number.
The clip has a negative slot and a positive male spade hole for each battery.
The space in the set looks a little bit large as if the original was bigger though.

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Michael Watterson » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:37 am

Common on German and French sets. Often with adaptor for a PP9 (extra space is for adaptor).
Since this model requires the centre tap, an adaptor is no use. The compartment is just spacious. Maybe had a piece of foam originally.

You can still buy the 1289 size battery from other brands. I buy them to make authentic Grid Bias packs (two in the box and the cells can stay in plastic case, top pops off and solder a "coffee tin tube" socket direct to each top and one extra on side of last cell.

An Alkaline AA has about the same capacity as the "B" cell used in a 1289. The PP9 has LOWER capacity at higher currents (say 200mA) but about x2 capacity at 25mA because it's a layer biscuit type. At normal volume most transistor sets are 12mA to 25mA assuming class B.

Some sets had the PP9 Carr Fasteners and space for a holder taking 2 x 1289.

Some sets took FOUR off 1289 or 2 x PP9

See notes I put here
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/ever_lamp_ ... _1289.html

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:49 am

I am thinking along the lines of two packs of NiMh cells with different male spades so that they go in the correct way only.
PP9 will not work as the speaker goes to the tap unless the adapter has a speaker capacitor.

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Michael Watterson » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:27 am

Yes, I pointed out that this model can't use a PP9 adaptor. They cost more than 2 x 3R12 packs anyway.
NiMH are
1) go flat on their own
2) lower voltage
3) Have to be taken out to charge
4) Fire risk to wiring if a short develops
5) Need the AA to 3R12 adaptor
6) Actually lower running time than Alkaline AA and 1/3 run time of 3LR12 in a Radio.

Why would you not use real 3R12 packs (keep it original), or get /make two of the AA adaptors pictured? 2x Alkaline 3LR12 or 6 x Alkaline AA in holders will last up to 10 years with intermittent use. Only leak of radio left on.

AA adaptor Available on eBay.de
Image

The 3R12 and 3LR12 are on eBay too. More common on eBay.de as people still bying the 3R12 in local shops for cycle, hand torch and Radio. When I was in Luzen in Oct 2013, the Lady of the house popped round to local shop for 2 x 3R12 (or maybe 3LR12) for a "music box". Quite cheap.

"LR" in a model means Alkaline version.

NiMH are best in power tools, high power lamps, two way radio, cameras, DAB radio and other high consumption devices. They are annoying and shorter run time in a Transistor radio

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:52 pm

I have been running a TR82 on an 8 cell pack of low self discharge NiMh and it lasts about a week unless it gets left on all night a couple of times.

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Michael Watterson » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:07 pm

The 3 x AA -> 3R12 adaptor would still be a good solution though for NiMH. Keeps Radio Original

A quick search on ebay.de reveals
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Battery-box-U ... 0607870878

There is "combined postage" for two. Same Priese
"Worldwide shipping: 3,99 £. These cost are fix for purchases worth up to 35 £ and max. 500g of weight, in case you also want to buy any other item from our shop"



BTW used every day my Decca Transistor Radio has lasted 9 months :) But it does use 2 x 996 packs (€2 each at my local Mr Price, which is about 9km there and 6km back, but free parking).

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:14 pm

I have tried a TR82 on 9.6V and it has been fine although the slightly high voltage may shorten the duty cycle a little I am happy with it.
I will have to stock up on battery holders next time I am buying parts so that I can try all options.

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Kalee20 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:58 pm

Refugee wrote:That is the one I was thinking of. They have a bit of an odd number.


The 1289 battery, yes, very much an odd number :qq1 .

Still in production - as others have pointed out, unlike the larger, screw-terminal, 4.5V bell battery. Type 126 - which is an even number :bba

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:02 am

I have a valve set to finish off and tuning cord from a new source to try out if it needs more than a test.
Between projects I may well be tempted to give it a go on the center tapped bench power supply and see if it fires up :cch

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by GlowingAnode » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:09 am

Kalee20 wrote:The 1289 battery, yes, very much an odd number :qq1 .



Not only is it an odd number, it is a prime number, an apocalyptic power, a deficient number, and an evil number. :bbeard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1289_(number)

Rob.

 

Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Mike C » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:44 pm

You can use original copied battery covers with these converters to as I bought a few cheap torches with these converters inside. You can still get the 1289 battery, its new code is 3R12, Panasonic make them as do Duracell, there easy to make covers for to, cells inside are U10 size, three in series.

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Michael Watterson » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:12 pm

Also Varta, Superpilla, Wonder (formerly Pile Wonder).

In many mainland Europe countries most shops have them. The Energiser seems to be only doing batteries that they do worldwide now and have now in UK & Ireland completely dropped UK Ever Ready Branding (They did take over in 1992!). I was amazed to see "Black Cat" & "Nine Lives" Eveready batteries now in the Irish Supermarket chain Dunnes. They of course only market the cheap inferior cells as Eveready, the Alkaline all Energiser. They, Duracell and Panasonic are twice to three times the price of other Alkaline brands here. A recent test showed Varta are marginally best and one variation of Duracell the poorest Alkaline. The ONLY Zinc cells worth getting are all layer types (but only the PP3 6F22 is widely available and smoke detectors should only use the Alkaline 6LR61, 996 lantern and possibly the 3R12 (1289). )
The 3R12 was never available in USA, so likely that is why Eveready /Energiser don't do it.

The 3R12 / 1289 may date from before 1914. All Winner, Portable and Grid Bias packs used Zinc Carbon R12.

IEC codes
R = Round
F = Flat
S = Square, not layer
LR = Alkaline Round
AR = Zinc Air Round
AS = Zinc Air Square crossection.

3R12 = 3 off R12 (U10)

4R25-2 = 4 off R25 in series and two sets in parallel. A Double 996 Lantern with Terminals, i.e. 991 pack (R25 = "F" Cell).

SR44 = Silver Oxide round cell size 44
LR44 = Alkaline round cell size 44
Oddly a 6LR61 usually doesn't have 6 Alkaline R61 size cells. The actual cell used is a different IEC number. I thought is was an AAAA, but the cells in a PP3 are about 3mm shorter than AAAA.
A 6V Flat photo J pack (4LR61) can thus be refilled with cells out of an Alkaline PP3.

Three digits is a Alkaline, Zinc Air or Silver Oxide button cell
I have not yet found a document of the two digit number codes for basic cells or 3 digit button cells

The IEC 4 digit codes are easy: first two is diameter in mm and second two are cell height in mm x 10
so 2cm x 3.2mm Lithium round cell is CR2032
(C means Lithium Manganese)

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:13 am

On the actual set I added two 3XAA packs and tried them in several positions.
They take PP3 snaps and I wired them to conductive tabs that push into the original clip.
If I need more weak signal gain I may well be able to get 4 packs in as there is room around the battery caddy for the original clip to sit in the cabinet with just the PP3 snaps reaching into the compartment.
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Michael Watterson » Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:46 am

An Alkaline AA is about the same or 30% more than the original cell at 10mA, maybe 50% more at 25mA.
An NiMH is a bit less than original at 10mA about the same at 25mA and has maybe x5 capacity at 250mA (as it has very much lower resistance).

You don't need more than AA using Alkaline or NiMH to replace U10 / B Cell (the insides of 1289 aka 3R12). The NiMH are though unsuitable for very intermittent use and totally unsuitable to replace Grid Bias Packs. The NiMH are best suited to listen to the radio 8 to 16hrs a day at high volume. If only an average of 10 min a day the Alkaline may actually work out cheaper and are less likely to leak than NiMH. Actually only faulty Alkaline leak, or if the battery is too tight in holder forcing bottom plate in.

I must find a source of AA to 3R12 adaptors that are same price as 3x AA holders. :)

Looks like you have it sorted.

 
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Re: 4.5 batteries - what type?

Post by Refugee » Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:01 pm

I am using it as a workshop radio so it is on for a reasonable amount of time.
I have done it so that if original batteries become easy to get locally they can just be put in as they were in originally.


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