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Channel number sequence on VHF dials

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Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:42 am

I can remember the dial on our TV in early 60's were channels 1 to 13 & to change channel you had to go from 4 (BBC) to 8 (ITV) & back here in Nottingham = 4 clicks. When we moved to Chester-le-street it was 5 to 8 = 3 clicks. In Yorkshire & Southern England it'd be even more clicks = a bit of a faff. We then had a TV where channels 4 & 8 were next to each other = 1 click = almost zero faff. I noticed that channel 5 was on the other side of 8 so still 1 click if we moved back to Chester-le-street, also 1 & 9 were together for London & North Ireland & 2 & 10 for Yorkshire. However what would be other side of 10? (I cant remember) Would it be 5 for West Country or 3 for Central Scotland? Was 12 next to 9 for Lancashire? 7 next to 13 for Lincolnshire & South Wales? & so on. Was there a set pattern? It would be impossible to make every part of the Country 1 click tuning I presume with all the channel configurations. Think some set designers had a few problems pleasing everyone..

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Terrykc » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:00 am

colly0410 wrote:... However what would be other side of 10? ...
3 Tacolneston 11 Mendlesham (Anglia)

No doubt this pairing also existed elsewhere ...

Rowridge/Chillerton Down (Southern) rings a bell ...

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by nuvistor » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:24 am

colly0410 wrote:(Was 12 next to 9 for Lancashire? ..

2 was next to 9 for Lancashire, Holme Moss and Winter Hill, the other side of 2 was 10 Holme Moss and Emley Moor. 1 would be on the other side of 9 for London. So that would be 10,2,9,1. Has you stated 4 and 8 were together, don't remember any more of the sequence.

BBC1 ch12 for Lancashire came quite late, around 1964/65, lots of sets by then had seperate VHF/UHF push button tuners or a combined VHF/UHF rotary tuner with I think 6 positions just marked BBC1/BBC2/ITV1 etc, eg. Ekco/Ferranti.
Other style tuners were in use but I never saw any with 9 and 12 together.

Frank

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Terrykc » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:07 am

Frank, if you reverse your order and add the sequence I mentioned, you get 1, 9, 2, 10, 3, 11 and it makes sense to add 4, 8, to this. We know from the first post that this was followed by 5, so possibly that was paired with 7 (Wenvoe/St Hilary)?

Surely someone has a set with such a sequence that could confirm the entire set?

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by CTV » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:47 am

405 channel allocation on dial from a 1967 Baird M702 CTV

vhf.jpg

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Cathovisor » Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:10 pm

The Baird has a similar layout to my KB set: in our case, 5 and 11 were helpfully adjacent for BBC (Peterborough) and Anglia (Mendlesham). A Pye incremental tuner was a PITA as you can imagine, which our second set was.

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by ntscuser » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:07 pm

colly0410 wrote:I can remember the dial on our TV in early 60's were channels 1 to 13 & to change channel you had to go from 4 (BBC) to 8 (ITV) & back here in Nottingham = 4 clicks.


It was second nature to me as a kid (in Coventry), did it without even thinking. :bba

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Till Eulenspiegel » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:43 pm

Manufactures in did for most regions get it right for one click VHF tuners. So for London it was 1 next to 9 and here in the North-East it was 5 and 8. For normal sequence channel tuners it was a common practice to reposition the coil biscuits so that the BBC and ITV channels were just one click apart.

Till Eulenspiegel.

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:14 pm

ntscuser wrote:
colly0410 wrote:I can remember the dial on our TV in early 60's were channels 1 to 13 & to change channel you had to go from 4 (BBC) to 8 (ITV) & back here in Nottingham = 4 clicks.


It was second nature to me as a kid (in Coventry), did it without even thinking. :bba


Stopped with some relatives in Worksop & couldn't understand why there was snow on ch's 4 & 8 when I turned the telly on. Of course it was ch's 2 (Holme Moss) & 10 (Emley Moor) my cousins thought I was daft.. :)

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by sideband » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:16 pm

This sequencing had never occurred to me. My only dual-standard set is the Pye 11U so next time I'm in the workshop I'll take a look at the channel knob. I do know that 1-9 (BBC1-ITV for London) are next to each other.

I seem to recall in the dim and distant past on one particular set we had, my brother must have changed the position of the coil biscuits because 1 and 13 were next to each other so he made 13 for ITV London...back to 1 click.

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by raditechman » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:22 pm

Of course on many tuners you could move the "biscuits" (clip in coils) and put the channels adjacent if the customer wanted it that way. The numbers of course would not be correct.
Not possible on the Fireball tuner.
I think it was better to have a long spin, say in London from 1-9, as it gave the contacts a bit of a clean!.

John

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by CTV » Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:42 pm

Here's a BRC 1400 VHF tuner from stock with its allocations.

vhf2.jpg

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Terrykc » Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:46 pm

raditechman wrote:Of course on many tuners you could move the "biscuits" (clip in coils) and put the channels adjacent if the customer wanted it that way. The numbers of course would not be correct.
Not possible on the Fireball tuner.
I think it was better to have a long spin, say in London from 1-9, as it gave the contacts a bit of a clean!.

John
With the tuner design that Bush used, sequential numbering was the only way - until they realised that the design was eminently suitable for the first 'Bush' button sets ...

1 to 9 was only 5 clicks if you went 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and vice versa. As for keeping the contacts clean, they only moved to select Band I or Band III, so it didn't matter which way you went!

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Katie Bush » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:07 pm

Terrykc wrote:With the tuner design that Bush used, sequential numbering was the only way - until they realised that the design was eminently suitable for the first 'Bush' button sets ...

1 to 9 was only 5 clicks if you went 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and vice versa. As for keeping the contacts clean, they only moved to select Band I or Band III, so it didn't matter which way you went!


Ah, the "Telepic" tuner, as used on our TV75, an elegant little tuner but could never be anything else but sequential.. I remember the performance we had with ours when the fine tuning knob broke free from its shank - just at the time of the Emley Moor mast failure.. Switching back and forth every once in a while to "check up on Yorkshire Television" became something of an art, just to get the fine tuner to work 'one more time' - thank God for "Bush Buttons" on the later models!

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:49 pm

My rented apt in Miami had a TV with a rotary VHF tuner, it was sequential 2 to 13 with a UHF bit between 2 & 13. The UHF rotary tuner was step free like the ones on the early Sony Trinitron's. (my Mum had the 1800 inches version of the Trinitron, very good picture) I suppose we were the only Country that had channel out of sequence rotary VHF tuners, unless someone knows different..

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by CTV » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:09 pm

colly0410 wrote: I suppose we were the only Country that had channel out of sequence rotary VHF tuners, unless someone knows different..

Teleton TX-12 with a sequentially numbered VHF tuner

vhf3.jpg

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:20 pm

Is the Teleton a European B/G TV? I noticed no ch's 1 or 13..

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Terrykc » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:51 am

Katie Bush wrote:Ah, the "Telepic" tuner, as used on our TV75, an elegant little tuner ...

The basic Bush tuner design was little changed from the time of the first 5-channel sets, the TV22 and TV24.

These earlier sets had three tuned circuits with individual cores mounted on a cross bar so that all three moved in and out controlled by a single screwed spindle with attached knob.

The knob arrangement was different on the Band III converter, due to the need to provide Band I/III switching as well, using the same knob but, internally, the same method of ganged cores was used.

A major improvement was to place all the coils on a single former for each band, with all the cores for each band on a single rod or 'wand'. This led to the 'looks like a turret tuner' approach that you were familiar with on your TV75 which had first been used on the TV53 series, where stepped rotary cams moved the spring loaded wands in and out, the band switching being done by a separate cam, resulting in a wider gap between 1 & 13 and 5 & 6 while the switch moved.

In fact, had Bush not concentrated on mimicking the turret tuner, the TV53 could have been the first set with Bush buttons - the physical functions of both types of tuner are identical, only the mechanical interface bolted on the front is different!

Katie Bush wrote: I remember the performance we had with ours when the fine tuning knob broke free from its shank - just at the time of the Emley Moor mast failure.. Switching back and forth every once in a while to "check up on Yorkshire Television" became something of an art ...

Yorkshire Television? Yorkshire was still covered by Granada at the time of the Emley Moor collapse, surely?

I could have sold you a new fine tuning knob - if you'd asked ...

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:42 pm

CrustyTV wrote:Here's a BRC 1400 VHF tuner from stock with its allocations.

vhf2.jpg


If you lived in the Bristol area with that tuner you'd have to go from one side to the other as Wenvoe used ch 5 & St Hilary used ch 10, unless you could get a West Country version. Did they have different versions?

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by nuvistor » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:09 pm

Terrykc wrote:Yorkshire Television? Yorkshire was still covered by Granada at the time of the Emley Moor collapse, surely?
..


From what I recall, Yorkshire TV started in the summer 1968 and the mast fell down March 69, I think the loss of revenue through a smaller service area until the new mast was constructed gave the very young Yorkshire TV a few financial headaches.

Frank

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Terrykc » Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:59 pm

nuvistor wrote:From what I recall, Yorkshire TV started in the summer 1968 and the mast fell down March 69, I think the loss of revenue through a smaller service area until the new mast was constructed gave the very young Yorkshire TV a few financial headaches.
You are correct, Frank - it was 9th July 1968, to be precise and the Emley Moor collapse was the following March.

Apologies to all for the error and thanks to Frank for the correction.

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:28 pm

I wonder how much smaller the service area was with the temporary Emley Moor mast? Wonder if those who lost signal had only BBC1 or did they get a snowy ITV picture from another TX?

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by Katie Bush » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:38 pm

colly0410 wrote:I wonder how much smaller the service area was with the temporary Emley Moor mast? Wonder if those who lost signal had only BBC1 or did they get a snowy ITV picture from another TX?


We were unfortunate enough to have only Yorkshire TV and BBC North, just Nort of York.. Belmont was just simply too far away, and Winter Hill, though in theory should have been readable, wasn't - ironically, when we moved to the East Riding Of Yorkshire, Winter Hill was further away than before, but was watchable from time to time, and Belmont was consistently available but very low strength.

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by colly0410 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:41 am

If ITV had used (with a bit more power maybe) the BBC Holme Moss mast would it have covered more or less the same areas east & west of the Pennines of the north with one transmitter? Just that most other BBC/ITV masts are usually co-sited..

 
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Re: Channel number sequence on VHF dials

Post by nuvistor » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:17 am

A point to remember is that when the mast went down Yorkshire TV transmitted on VHF ch 10 but at the end of 69 colour transmission started. Yorkshire TV had spent a lot of money equipping their studios etc for colour. They were the poorer funded consortium that won the bid against Telefusion who had more cash. Yorkshire TV won because rightly or wrongly it was thought they would do a better job programme wise.
After spending all that cash, the first 18 months would be VHF B/W only, they must have been counting on a big audience for their colour programmes and hence income from advertisers.
When colour came to the BBC1 and ITV, the demand grew quickly, getting stock in the first 2 years was sometimes not easy.
I am not sure about how much the coverage was reduced but it was a large drop, time for a bit of research, I may find something.
Frank

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