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Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

 
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Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Katie Bush » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:09 am

Hi all,

Today I had mad afternoon attempting to bring a wired telephone/broadband extension into the cabin.. A simple enough job, and the telephone at the remote end of the extension works perfectly, but the broadband doesn't. :aad

Because this is a private extension it can only connect to the BT network via an interuptable connection (basically, a plug and socket arrangement).. The extension has a total length of about a hundred feet and is made up of a short length of three pair (six wires) standard internal telephone cable (at each end), with three wires connected for voice/signal and bell.

The bulk of the cable run is BT standard overhead two pair (4 wires) cable with the appropriate three wires connected.. The connection boxes are genuine BT standard grey plastic boxes as used in standard BT installations all over the land.

On test, the standard BT telephone works flawlessly, without noise or crackle and provides an excellent analogue phone service.. What I can't understand, is why the broadband (DSL) signal is not being carried, or at least is not being detected by the Wi-Fi hub at the remote end.. At the "home" end, all is fine and working normally.

This is not an issue of 'micro filters'.. With appropriate filters installed, and even with all other devices (telephones, SKY Digi Box etc) disconnected, the DSL signal is still not being detected at the remote end of the extension.

Ultimately, I had to give up my quest when my back pain got the better of me, but I would be interested if anyone has any suggestions as to what might be the cause.

My only thought, and it's a poor one, is does the polarity of the incomming DEL (direct exchange line) have any bearing on the DSL signal.. I say it's a poor one because I checked the polarity of the incomming DC at the sockets at both ends of the extension, and it is the same at both ends, so no reverse connections.

I have to admit to being stumped, for now at least, and I thought I understood telephone wiring. :aab

Marion

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Refugee » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:44 am

Are you sure that there is not a microfilter at the house end that your feed has been connected to by mistake?

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Stitch » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:51 am

As you don't appear to have any signal this probably isn't relevant but have you tried disconnecting the bell wire?
They are prone to picking up interference and degrading the signal. Before I upgraded to superfast I did this and it did help (and using a filter my 746 still rang). Basically the same as using an iplate.

Just a thought.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm

John

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Terrykc » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:46 pm

Marion, I know that lot's of people agree with John's idea about the bell wire - if necessary, fit a master socket (or bell capacitor) at the remote end.

I assume that distance is the killer as far as WiFi is concerned but have you considered bumping up your WiFi signal? Provided you have the type of router with a whip aerial - so many seem to have integral aerials these days, unfortunately - or can find another one that works, it is possible to replace the whip by a directional horn antenna with lots of gain!

I think the usual approach is a microwave diode in a cocoa tin but I'm sure a search engine will point the way to a number of such DIY solutions ...

Another I liked when I saw it is exceedingly simple. It consists of cardboard or plasticard covered in tin foil. The website, if you can find it, gives detailed cutting/glueing instructions for a little unit which simply slips over the whip aerial to convert it into a corner reflector ...

Personally, I'd run CAT 5 from the router to the PC. A 100' (30m) run is not a problem.

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Michael Watterson » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:48 pm

It's the bell wiring. Perverted BT extension system.

Extend incoming the master two wires via a twisted pair and fit decent DSL splitter so you can have Phone & Modem. Cat3 cable with multiple pairs is OK, flat cable or four core alarm type cable isn't.

My advice is to completely remove ALL BT sockets and use the RJ45 / RJ11 structured wiring scheme on Cat5e, then sockets can be patched as phone or ethernet.

The BT system is designed to stop "bell tinkle"!

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Terrykc » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:24 pm

Michael Watterson wrote:The BT system is designed to stop "bell tinkle"!

Perhaps in a modern system but historically that is what the fourth wire was for!

Originally, the ringers were 500Ω impedance and up to three extensions or bells could be added by wiring the bells in series, giving a maximum impedance of 2,000Ω.

The modern system used 2,000Ω bells which could then be paralleled to give as low as 500Ω for four phones/bells.

The standard 4-wire presentation only allowed for one extension.

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Katie Bush » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:33 pm

Hi all,

I think I have it licked now - urgh. :aak Temporarily!

I fitted spare master socket at the remote end, and cheated.. I took the "home" master out of the equation and have a single pair pair to the cabin.. Now all is well.

Eventually, I think I'll devise a switching system so that the broadband can be used at either end.

My main reason for wanting to get broadband into the cabin is because of the interference and signal dropouts that get worse as the night draws on.. I have been using a high power (1 Watt) mast mounted wireless 'card' which is reputed to be good for a couple of miles.. It's an Egasky MARS jobbie (can't recall model number) available via the bay.

Of late, there has been a lot more internet traffic in my location, and it seems to knock out, if that's the term for it, my wireless signal.. The problem being that the PC would then throw a hissy fit and refuse to reconnect to the hub unless I rebooted it first.. It got to the point where I was rebooting five or six times in an evening.. The worst was eight reboots, and that's a lot of wasted time!

I might just try Terry's idea of adding a bell capacitor at the remote end and see what happens with the master reinstated at the 'home' end of the line.

I reasoned it out that it had something to do with the three wire setup, and then remembered that the broaband will only work if it is taken off at the master socket.. I have to admit, I couldn't remember why it needed such a long DSL lead for the hub, until it dawned on me.. I've been here before, and the hub won't work on any extension socket.. All it will do, is to search for the broaband signal, but never detect it.

At the moment, I can have the broadband, either at the home end, or at the remote end, but not both.. Since I spend all of my internet time on the PC in the cabin, for now, that's where the broadband is routed to, until I try a bit of jiggery=pokery to see if it can be made to work at both ends, ergo, Terry's bell cap idea.

Of course, if I was adventurous enough, had the time and patience, and enough know-how.. I could set up one of my InDeX PABXs with ADSL extensions... But, not tonight, Josephine.

Marion

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Katie Bush » Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:37 pm

Hi Jeffrey,

Not a stupid question at all, but since I wanted both telephone and broadband anyway, it seemed to make sense to extend the existing service.. In addition, I have no Cat5e cabling, no suitable connectors or boxes, and I wanted to get it up and working yesterday.

The only reason for this, as I said earlier, was because of the interference and frequent drop outs.. You might say, I was becoming somewhat riled by the constant rebooting and wanted an instant solution, and since I very very rarely use the internet anywhere else but the cabin, it suits my purpose for the hub/router to be in there, right next to the PC.

Marion

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Wolfie » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:25 am

Your BB has probably already done several miles using the BT phone cable, surely an extra 100 feet should be no problem, so i'd reckon that there is a cable fault or an incompatible type is possibly your problem rather than anything you did or interference on your extension, which would have to be pretty horrendous to affect a fixed cable.

I hate to advocate such methods but at every Telephone Exchange in the country is a bin full of discarded cable lengths and even discarded semi reels of the stuff just heading for the recycling (which people regularly help themselves to).

Since exchange (see what I did there?) is no robbery, I'd be tempted to swap yours for some of theirs (they don't care anyway) and theirs has the added benefit of an internal steel support cable so you can make a catenary extension if over/underground is not feasible.

As for extending the Cat5, you can get all you require from Maplin.. and cut a ready made Cat5 cable in half to make the end connections.

Or.. use Wifi and a Cordless Phone.. with both mounted in a decent indoor spot (ours are in the loft) you should get 100ft coverage..

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Terrykc » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:57 pm

Marion, if you have plenty of ordinary telephone cable it is worth a punt using it in place of Cat 5 - the additional crosstalk shouldn't be a problem in your application.

Find a suitable made-up Cat 5 patch cord - if you haven't got one, you can sometimes find them in Pound shops - and cut it into two suitable lengths. Ignore the two outside pairs and connect the inside two to your telephone cable. Note the middle two wires are one pair and the two wires either side are the other pair, so take care to match them up to the cable properly and connect like for like at each end. As you only need four connections, some of your stock of BT terminal blocks will be fine. If the patch cable is screened, just ignore the screen.

As for WiFi interference, re-siting the router can help but have you tried changing the channel your router uses?

If the interference is from other WiFi users*, a free utility called inSSIDer can be very useful:

http://www.metageek.net/support/downloads/

The free version is now called inSSIDer Home. Also note the link at the bottom of the page if you are not using Vista or later.

* Unlikely in your rural location, I would have thought, but look what I have to contend with!
Attachments
inSSIDer2.PNG

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Terrykc » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:23 pm

Here's the screen-shot of inSSIDer that should have appeared in the previous post.

I could preview it but all attempts to submit the post ended in lengthy delays and eventual time-outs!

Better luck this time ...
Attachments
inSSIDer2.PNG

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by sideband » Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:54 pm

Don't know what happened there Terry. You ended up with three duplicated posts and the picture appeared in all of them together with the one in your last post! I've deleted the duplicated posts.


Cheers


Rich

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Terrykc » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:02 pm

How strange ...

I hadn't spotted that!

Thanks Rich - perhaps you'd better delete the post with the duplicate image as well - I can edit it, I see, but not delete it ...

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Katie Bush » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:54 am

Hi all,

I now have socket box with bell capacitor, and no resistor or surge protector, so I'll give that a whirl at the weekend to see if reverting to a two wire line will allow the BB signal to reach the remote end in an unmolested condition.

Marion

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by ianm » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:33 pm

Marion's post has coincided with a situation that a family friend has recently encountered, and one which I am now actively engaged in attempting to sort out.

My friend moved house last month. Prior to the move, her landline was with BT and her broadband with Madasafish. A couple of weeks after the move, the landline at the new property was activated and has worked fine ever since for PSTN calls. Madasafish were instructed to transfer the broadband services to the new PSTN number.

Once Madasafish completed the transfer, the broadband failed to work and this is where I came into the picture. I connected my own Netgear router to each outlet in the property, but at no time could my router detect the presence of broadband. All of the ADSL stats stayed resolutely at zero every time. My friend was already fed up at this stage, because BT and Madasafish were blaming in each other for the problem.

So, my initial advice was to ditch Madasafish and switch to BT, thus both services would be with a single provider. The logic here of course that we wouldn't have two unrelated parties blaming each other, with my friend caught in the middle.

The upshot of the switch to BT is that the broadband still doesn't work. I was fairly certain that this would be the case, so no surprise at all. Working on the understanding that both Madasafish, and latterly BT, provisioned the broadband services correctly, I have come to the conclusion that there is some sort of wiring issue within the property, which we know has never previously had broadband. The master socket and wiring in general all look old and a bit ropey.

For tomorrow morning, I have arranged for a BT engineer to attend, with a view to replacing the wiring into the property, along with a nice new master socket. I've suggested to my friend that the rest of the telephone wiring throughout the property can be binned, on the basis that there is really only a need for a single outlet; a purpose that can be served by the new master socket.

Question is, am I on the right track here? Thoughts of others?

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Refugee » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:16 pm

I would switch back to Madasafish for both services. You don't get all the rubbish through the post and they also have a British call center :thumb
BT will have to replace the master socket anyway. Old master sockets go intermittent. New ones are stood off the wall a bit further and last longer.

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by ianm » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:14 pm

ppppenguin wrote:I reckon they've fouled up at the exchange

On the face of it, I did wonder about that. The only thing that put some doubt in my mind was that Madasafish must also have fouled up, hence it didn't seem likely that both ISPs managed to get it wrong.

Whatever the outcome, there will certainly be no harm in having some new wiring and an up-to-date master socket. By this time tomorrow, we'll have a clearer view, or perhaps it'll even be working.

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by ianm » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:33 pm

We have a result! Not exactly as I expected, but it turned out that getting an Openreach engineer to the property was exactly the right thing to do.

I met the engineer as he arrived and explained the problem. He took one look at the master socket and related wiring, then declared "I can see straight away why the broadband isn't working".

In between the incoming cable and the master socket was a small plastic box, which I had assumed to be a simple junction box, and possibly the result of the master socket having been re-located in the past. Wrong! In fact, it was an RF filter, model number RF2. The engineer explained that many of these had been installed several years ago, to overcome radio interference. Apparently, some subscribers at the time reported Capital Radio breaking through on their phone lines!

The engineer went on to say that these units add approximately 2Km to the effective distance of the property from the exchange, in this case putting it quite comfortably out of reach for broadband services. So, following removal of the RF2 and installation of an up-to-date NTE, everything's working perfectly.

Just one fly in the ointment, however. Following five weeks without internet access, my friend was anxious to read her emails for the first time since moving house. However, the 'Dialstart' email account that she's used for the last twelve years was found to be inaccessible. Seems that Dialstart were taken over by Madasafish at some time in the past. As it was only two days since the Madasafish contract ended, we phoned them to see if anything could be done to help retrieve the lost emails, but they said not.
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Michael Watterson » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:05 pm

Despicable attitude to customer property!
0.00001 of a Penny Pinching.

 
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Re: Broaband not working over extended phone line..?

Post by Refugee » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:29 am

If you switch from Madasafish you have to set up a product called "Justmail" to keep your old email address.

That filter has got the old style 1980s logo on it. I cant remember when they changed it though.


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