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Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

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Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:55 pm

Well here is the list from the website for the new Information Age gallery at the Science Museum:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/online_ ... listpage=1

Sarnoff
Cambell-Swinton
Reeves
Armstrong
Round
Flemming
Burrows
Baird
Hankey
Dimmock
Moseley
Sargrove
Reith
Eckersley
Marconi

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Brianc » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:23 pm

The obvious missing persons are Blumlein and Shoenberg!

Our posts crossed, Jeffrey!

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:29 pm

The exhibit list appears to have several that would please Moseley and Baird yet none connected with EMI television development.

Peter

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:07 pm

Which makes you wonder how they managed to forget the minor contribution of the EMI team. Perhaps they thought including Sarnoff that was sufficient.

Peter

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by kalee99 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:19 am

Hi all,
Most crucial person missing is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo_Farnsworth
Had a big legal battle about the patent of his method of electronic line scanning.
Still missed off on most mocumentarys on the history of TV.

Paul.

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:21 am

Hi Paul,

The list is very short indeed when you think of all the people who toiled to achieve broadcasting in general and television in particular and it is difficult to understand the criteria used to create this particular list. Perhaps it is understandable that they might want to highlight people who were associated with exhibits in the Science Museum collection but given the shortness of the list I would have limited it to those whose efforts directly contributed to broadcasting that actually took place and not experimental and dead end developments. Given that this is the Science Museum and not the V&A I would question whether performers names should appear and I would also question the inclusion of promoters over developers.

But you make a very fair point. If they include Moseley and Baird then Farnsworth should definitely be in there too but I certainly wouldn't stop there.

Peter

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Michael Watterson » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:08 pm

Farnsworth and Baird were NOT crucial. Yes pioneers. But Farnsworth's image dissector idea inherently was a dead end (no charge storage so sensitivity is 1/(line rate x frame rate x line resolution), which is garbage).
Baird also apart from his film scanner was on a dead end. If neither had existed it would have made no difference at all.

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:15 pm

I agree 100%.

Peter

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Michael Watterson » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:38 pm

EMI formed from HMV, the UK aspect of Victor Talking Machine Co, bought by RCA. Hence RCA Victor and BOTH had the Nipper logo.
RCA was also close to Marconi (one of the founders) and recommended Marconi have EMI (HMV + UK Columbia) take over domestic Radio brand.

RCA & EMI continued to co-operate (RCA may even had somewhat of a shareholding in late 1920s / early 1930s) so the Electronic TV based on Zworykin's work (in turn based on his Russian "mentor" as was somebody in EMI too), was almost a co-development.
From even before 1920s Radio, it was was known the CRT (Braun Tube) was best display (A Dutch person did a VERY early Baird receiver based on CRT), but the problem for Camera was two fold:
1) A suitable photo target to be scanned by electron beam
2) How to accumulate photo electric effect while the pixel isn't scanned.
The original CRTs (sometime before 1905 at least) were cold cathode and VERY dim / low emission. I don't know when the CRT gained a heated cathode (likely direct filamentary if before 1928).

Everyone technical knew Baird's development of Victorian era Nipkow disk was basically a low resolution toy. Only with mirror display was mechanical TV of 80 to 220 possible. The disc is really infeasible above 30 to 40 lines. But even with mirror display the problem was that the sensitivity at say 12 fps and 200 lines for square image would be about 1/(480,000) of a static photo cell. Hence near real time film camera and telecine to get sensitivity. Baird's near real time film cameras where far superior to Farnsworth's image dissector and could of course do far more than needed for 405 or 525. But the Film camera + Telecine was never going to compete on cost or actual real time or "portability" of the RCA/EMI camera, which could only get better with each generation of development as charge accumulated between the time the beam scans the element.

Real TV also needed wide bandwidth and VHF. The mechanical TVs and consumer faxes of 1930s in UK and USA (also other places too) allowed a novelty picture reception out of hours using existing MW & LW Radio transmitters and receivers. Even recording on existing "home" disk recorders.
The idea lives on in Weather fax (HF and 137MHz FM), very slow but high resolution and 1/4 TV resolution slow amateur SSTV (in colour on shortwave).
Wire photos (over phone or possibly telegraph wires) then Modern Fax developed out of German Hellscriber and 1930s MW Consumer fax transmissions.

Laser projection systems have used two rotating mirrors for even HD. The line scan is a small polygon mirror. The Scophony system was earliest (very late 1930s?) HD mechanical TV. It seriously pushed the tech for high RPM synchronous motors and meant BBC had to improve timebase stability. It allowed 405 line in Cinema.
eInk (as in Kindle etc) is a Mechanical display, but can't do much speed, each dot is a bead in milky liquid. DLP is a wobbling nanotech mirror for each dot. It's so fast, it can do HDTV converted to Field Sequential using a colour wheel, for cheap projectors. Cinema has always used three DLP chips.
The Baird Film Camera + Telecine was used in earlier satellites before HD cameras. The ultra high resolution film was developed then scanned very slowly for transmission. A similar idea to Baird's camera.

I don't know how the Apollo cameras worked, it wasn't regular video though, NASA used optical conversion on Earth to create the TV pictures.

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Brianc » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:01 pm

Michael Watterson wrote:Farnsworth and Baird were NOT crucial. Yes pioneers. But Farnsworth's image dissector idea inherently was a dead end (no charge storage so sensitivity is 1/(line rate x frame rate x line resolution), which is garbage).
Baird also apart from his film scanner was on a dead end. If neither had existed it would have made no difference at all.

I agree with you, Michael, especially about Farnsworth. Baird, however, was solely responsible for getting the BBC to reluctantly agree to transmit television pictures and this stirred the public's imagination. Without Baird, EMI might not have committed themselves to develop their system and we would have been in the "also ran" category of public television. His system was hopeless (except, as Michael say, the telecine) but his marketing was vital!

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Michael Watterson » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:01 pm

It's impossible to say.
Germany, France, USA all working on TV, all had Electronic TV before the WWII. The USA stopped production of TVs sometime after 1941, but never shut down the service.

Certainly Baird created a lot of publicity. EMI (with RCA support) were probably doing it anyway and the limiting factor was only a working reliable camera tube. Would UK have been spurred on by German Berlin Games TV demos?

Would Berliner have developed the Gramophone if Edison hadn't done his half baked (well moulded, the mass produced cylinders suffered from the half & half mould) cylinder?
Would there have been so much pressure to figure how to create Tungsten filaments if Edison hadn't promoted his carbon filament lamp (a bamboo fibre proved to be best source, Edison certainly didn't invent electric lights but popularised them). Edison inadvertently created Hollywood by enforcing his bogus film /cinema patents by force (he didn't invent cinema, but helped popularise it in USA). The US Government later invalidated most of his cinema patents and told him to stop.

Perhaps one of Edison's genuine innovations was his talking doll. (ceased production 1890). I don't know why it was a failure though. Edison admired Marconi greatly but frankly told him it was because he hadn't had time to work on Radio and be in competition! He seems to have really disliked Tesla, who was as advanced or more so in radio as Marconi, but other than a pre 1900 radio controlled boat seems to have taken it no further? Too busy fighting with Edison about AC vs DC power (ironically now DC transmission is more economical!) and working on his fairly insane "Wireless power distribution".

We can't ever know what "might have been". Baird was certainly a character that captured imagination of the public, ever a showman (there was a BBC article about his WWI era women in sandwich boards advertising his product). Baird was a classic tinkerer that obsessively had successive ideas and wasn't a scientist, or really even a proper engineer, (Though I could be wrong). His nearly real time Film Camera/Telecine was his true masterpiece, if Zworykin hadn't solved the problems of the camera, 405 and 525 TV would have been using Baird's Film system cameras and not Farnsworth's Image dissector. We though then might have had some better than 405 and 525 "saved" film from early days of TV! :)

What were the Germans using in Berlin 1936 for TV? Did Telefunken have a version of the EMI/RCA camera, licensed or copied? Or something else?

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoted from ETF:

The 1936 Berlin Olympic games were the first to be televised. The Nazi government used the Olympics as a propaganda tool, and the presence of television was used to highlight Germany's sophisticated technology.

Both Vladimir Zworykin's Iconoscope camera pick up tube and Philo Farnsworth's Image Dissector camera pick up tube were adopted and operated in German cameras. In 1936 Zworykin, a Russian Jew, was working for RCA labs and Farnsworth, a Utah Mormon, was working with Philco. Both would have been persecuted for their religious and ethnic backgrounds in Nazi Germany, and yet their inventions made television cameras possible.

Actually, the 180 line German television system was crude compared to the 405 line British system. England inaugurated regularly scheduled programming in the fall of 1936.

21 cameras were used. Some used image dissectors and some used iconoscopes. The most impressive was the Fernsehkanonen (television canon), which was 6 feet long. Three of these cameras were used at the Olympics.


I think this German camera was an iconoscope: http://www.scanningwwii.com/images/dbd/05/430507-01.jpg

Peter

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by jjl » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:52 pm

Michael Watterson wrote:eInk (as in Kindle etc) is a Mechanical display, but can't do much speed, each dot is a bead in milky liquid.


Yes E Ink is a mechanical display medium. It is formed of many capsules, each contains some sort of more or less transparent fluid in which are suspended many charged black and white particles. Thes black and white have opposite electrostatic charge. Each particle within a capsule is effectively an electret. To make a capsule black, the black particles are electrically attracted to the top, visible, surface of the medium and the white particles are thus repelled to the non-visible rear of the medium.
Individual capsules are very small indeed and a typical e.g. Kindle visible display pixel would be formed of tens or possibly hundreds of E Ink capsules.

I worked with E Ink displays for 4 or 5 years or so but was never party to the exact nature of the materials used within the capsules.

The interesting property of E Ink which allows e-reader devices to have extended battery life is that the display medium is bistable; it requires energy to change its state i.e. the image that it displays, but once the image is established, it remains indefinitely and requires no power to maintain it. I've seen E Ink media that is completely disconnected from any drive electronics and is still showing the image that was applied to it 10 years previously with no obvious degradation.

John

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Michael Watterson » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:04 am

Thanks John.
There is a new Russian phone with curved eInk back. If the battery is dying you can "copy" the map etc on the front LCD and thus use it after the battery has died.
I love my Kindle DXG. Big enough for the R&TVS and Trader Sheets. Also the big RCA tube manual.

Wife and Son have gen1 and gen2 paperwhite (kindle gen 5 & 6?). I just saw the Kindle gen7 Touch, fabulous screen (£69). I saw original Sony PRC about maybe 7 years ago? It was too expensive

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Michael Watterson » Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:08 am

ppppenguin wrote: iconoscope cameras provided by Telefunken. Telefunken were patent licensees of RCA.

I think they also early licencee of RCA's Superhet patents. I suspected that they had licensed the Iconoscope. They did make a fabulous TV (1939) the tube almost looks 1970s.
http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/telefunken ... e7_fe.html

Thanks

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by BluePilot » Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:03 am

peter scott wrote:The 1936 Berlin Olympic games were the first to be televised.

This link is quite interesting:
http://hka-online.de/maschi/maschi001.html
I'm sure Google will translate it for you.
This link:
http://www.tvprogramme.net/es.htm
gives a few more details including the fact that sound was transmitted on 7.06m and video on 6.77m,

It also mentions Paul Nipkow.

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:34 am


 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by peter scott » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:37 pm

Sorry, the above link has been killed.

Without English narration but same content...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLDcA51lKqA

Peter

 
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Re: Who are the Important People in Broadcasting History?

Post by Brianc » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:20 pm

Norman kindly gave me DVD copy of his lecture about 2 weeks ago and I haven't got round to watching it yet. I'll have a look in the next few days and see what he said.

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